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[personal profile] wombat1138
Anakin still bugs the hell out of me in the prequel films. No matter how I try to contort my certain point of view, I can't get his character development or even basic setup to make sense.

First of all, let's start with the slave-boy thing, because we have to. From a plot-external perspective, this mostly seems to be dictated by the virgin-birth thing-- his mother has to be in a situation where his conception can't be explained, but also where she can't just pick up and go with him. So she can't be a single mother on her own, unless she gets trapdoored just in time for the Jedi to whisk Anakin away by himself, or unless she just doesn't care about the kid. If she'd already been married to Clieg Lars and dandling another baby, that would've explained her lack of mobility and also set up some later dimensions to Vader ordering the old homestead to be torched around his (step-)brother's body, but it also would've required some extra explanation along the lines of "Anakin was conceived before I married Clieg-- no, we weren't fooling around beforehand; some guy with wings played the sax at me while I was getting dive-bombed by a dove, and-- no, I wasn't just being a ho-bag with an earlier boyfriend-- no, honest; stop smirking!"

Hence Shmi's slavery, and hence also why none of her known owners are particularly humanoid (afaik-- I'm just going by what I remember of the movies themselves, regardless of whatever supplemental materials might've been published). But it's still a clumsy device for framing Anakin as the result of a virgin birth; it doesn't exclude possible interactions by Shmi with past human masters, co-slaves, or whoever. There's also no explanation of how she became a slave, or, since Anakin seems to have inherited his mother's status, why she hasn't been put to work breeding litters of separately sellable/workable siblings. The conditions of their slavery don't even seem particularly onerous, compared to the theoretical scenario of already having Clieg as a stepfather.

The previous paragraph was shifting toward plot-internal factors, of which the biggest hurdle for me is this: if you're a Dark Lord of the Sith (and who isn't?), and you want to create a Child Of Prophecy (TM) to plant within the Jedi Order to destroy it from within-- and heck, did Sidious even really *need* Vader to help with that, on top of all the clonetroopers?-- wouldn't you want to keep track of him, instead of letting him and his mother drift off to nowhere in the hands of random masters who might've airlocked the kid in a fit of pique? I doubt that Sithly powers from afar could've saved Ani-chan from being buried in a sandstorm or crushed by falling scrap.

Next, the bad-seed thing. Unless you simply postulate that he was conceived as Pure Evil (TM) from the start and nothing could've saved him-- which rather negates the supposed irony of "Oh, what a cute innocent sweetie he was to start with!"-- or that Sidious gradually used the Dark Side to make him Stupid, what step of his upbringing is supposed to've gone wrong? He loved his mother and she loved him (and yet their story is rather grim); how much should that really have screwed up the usual Jedi apprenticeship? (It makes his obsessive imprinting on Padme even creepier, when you think about her maternal gesture of giving him a blankie to curl up in.)

Yes, there were some initial rivalry issues with Kenobi, at least from Kenobi's point of view; I'm not sure that Anakin even noticed them at the time, and Kenobi seemed to quash them down pretty well after he was promoted and had to take charge of Anakin himself. Anakin lost his initial Jedi mentor, yes, but how traumatic should that have been when the kid had only known Qui-Gon for what, a few days? weeks? surely not longer than that. Definitely not longer than Anakin had known Shmi.

...I think there's also a proto-thought gelling toward the back of my brain cell about Padme, slavery, and different planetary prejudices toward aliens/droids, but that'll have to wait for a bit until I can find some Kool-Whip to garnish it with.
Posted by [identity profile] bellatrys.livejournal.com
where it actually makes sense of Prequel II, but I'm not sure that anyone can sort out the intrinsic, conclusion-driving-plot craziness of the first one.

compared to AOTC...

on 2005-12-11 05:06 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] wombat1138.livejournal.com
TPM is relatively sensical, imho, esp. when one could still expect the next two films to fill in the major logic holes. Unfortunately, they didn't.

1.) Are we really supposed to expect that Palpatine used the Dark Side to control the battle droids' attacks on the queen's ship so precisely that A.) they'd be forced to land anywhere on Tatooine, B.) specifically within walking distance of Mos Espaa, and C.) needing a part which would only be available at Watto's shop? Who knew the Dark Side was so good at calculating orbital mechanics and planetary-scale inventory control?

[1.B.i.: Or is Mos Espaa simply the metropolitan area that was the most obvious from orbit, even if thirty years later, it didn't stand a chance against Mos Eisley in the Scum'n'Villainy pageant?]

[1.B.ii.: And good on Palpatine at foreseeing that Padme would insist on personally tagging along with Qui-Gon rather than sending one of her nearly-identical handmaidens for Ani-chan to glomp onto instead. Then again, maybe any pretty girl could've imprinted the kid with a decade-long countdown toward the Dark Side; when you look at the timeline, she wouldn't even nec'ly need to've been accessible off-planet during the interval. Just imagine Beru as a fellow child-slave, perhaps bought by Clieg Lars at the same time as Shmi, or perhaps re-encountered in Mos Espa during the search for Watto-- either way, available on the spot as a familiar yet grown-up babe to comfort Angsty!Anakin after his mommy died; unlike Padme, Beru would've grown up with a predisposed dislike for the Tusken Raiders, facilitating a brushoff of his single-handed My Lai.]

[1.B.iii.: Though really, the important part would've been getting a Jedi-- any Jedi-- to take a blood sample from Anakin and drag him offworld. But perhaps the kid's romantic imprinting would've been impeded if his first encounter with a girl who wasn't permanently dusty and sunburnt was with a whole ship/planet of them.]

2.) From the standpoint of the Trade Federation, what was the benefit of blockading Naboo? Yes, from Palpatine's perspective, it built up sympathy for him as the representative of an oppressed world, but what reason did the Senate have to pay any attention to the blockade in the first place? Naboo seems to've been a rather small, sparsely populated planet whose nonhuman (indigenous?) inhabitants were dismissed by the humans as scarcely better than dumb animals. (Not that they would've been wrong with Jar-Jar.) If Naboo had some sort of rare export that was either necessary or highly profitable (melange? blood diamonds?), there wasn't any indication of what it might've been or who might've missed it enough to eventually do something about it.

(All the Senate ended up doing, for that matter, was send two Jedi whose ship was promptly blown up, and then when the Jedi returned to Coruscant with the exiled Queen, the Senate just sent them back without reinforcements; the Federation didn't even get scolded that it had been very naughty to blow up the Jedi transport and conduct a military invasion of Naboo, and that they mustn't do that again or there would be no rice pudding for afters.)

yeah, worldbuilding is important!

on 2005-12-11 05:34 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] bellatrys.livejournal.com
amazing how some people don't get that. I'm reminded of Diane Wynne Jones' "tough guide to Fantasyland" by your comments about Naboo's role in the economy.

What bugged the heck out of me in AOTC is that there's no logical reason for them not to have sent back to buy Shmi after reaching civilization. The Temple has no budget escrow at all? They don't think that keeping their star pupil comfortable and grateful is important, even leaving aside the humanitarian aspects? They'd rather have him worried and resentful on top of all his other issues? If they're that clueless, how come Palpatine didn't win long ago?

So my alternate scenario is that they go to redeem her - but in the meantime she's already met Mr. Lars, he's been captivated, she's enchanted, they've gone off to set up housekeeping together and she sends him bubbly letters about how happy she is, he's got a good career now and she has people who need her and like her, one door closes another opens - and he gets the major jealousy that she's got a life of her own now and doesn't need to be rescued by him, and this resentment never goes away - and the feeling of [irrational] abandonment and blame for her, too.

You could get a seriously twisted, but plausible, and pitiable, family dynamic going on that way - without making the Jedi look heartless and dumb. (Anakin getting more and more bitter when his Temple-mates ask him how his mom is doing, isn't it nice that she found someone, the Force was working there, and he's thinking "she doesn't love me any more!" and getting more and more needy/dependent/jealous of everyone else he still has around him.) And the guilt for resenting her, after she gets killed, making him choose to go on a rampage rather than self-confront. Because he can't blame *her* either, at that point, any more.

Oooooo,

on 2005-12-13 11:36 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] wombat1138.livejournal.com
Dang. That's brilliant. (I've been trying to think of another comment to add to that scenario, but so far no luck.)

But on the whole (or at least by Lucas's standards), the Jedi Council might've thought it would be best to ignore Shmi altogether, in hopes of encouraging that whole detachment thing in the kid-- and yet, Kenobi was presumably brought up in the Approved Manner (TM), but was clearly devastated in a very personal way by Qui-Gon's death and Anakin's betrayal. Yeah, Qui-Gon was known to've had some odd quirks within the Jedi system, but still.

(Or should we ascribe more significance to Qui-Gon having been apprenticed to Count Dooku before(?) the latter went renegade? Then again, since I haven't been keeping an eye on the fandom, I have no idea whether there are long, involved theories about that already....)
Posted by [identity profile] bellatrys.livejournal.com
for AOTC if we thought about it. We'd have to come up with a list of all the serious plotholes, the ones that are axle-breaking, not "oh that happened offscreen" minutae. It might end up hopeless, I"m not really sure, b/c you're right, Phantom Menace is really a bunch of very thin plot threads holding set pieces together, like a Pantomime or Busby Berkley spectacle.

But I'm sure it would be possible to improve on the plot logic, and the suspense and emotional angst at the same time. (We could go back and do Jedi while we're at it, and deal with Luke dealing with the fact that he's Vader Junior instead of just fastfwding to the New Enlightened Mature Luke, too.)

Alas, I'm already compromised...

on 2005-12-17 04:20 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] wombat1138.livejournal.com
My mental map of prequel territory is already minefieldy what with fic (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=wombat1138&keyword=SW+fanfic&filter=all).

From certain perspectives, TPM is very good at fitting all of its own pieces together into place, which I suppose is just another way of saying that it's facile and contrived, but to me it did feel more smoothly integrated than AOTC or ROTS. Except for the gratuitous "insert videogame tie-in here" podrace. And maybe the "dodging implausibly large fish through *how* much oceanic pressure through the *planet CORE?!?!*" WTF-fest. And, uh, never mind.

Re: Alas, I'm already compromised...

on 2005-12-19 04:34 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] qadgop.livejournal.com
Don't recall which writer it was that semi-facetiously suggested Naboo was an artificial planet created by lumping asteroids together, rather than something with an active geologic core. I've no doubt that doesn't work.

Re: compared to AOTC...

on 2005-12-19 04:30 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] qadgop.livejournal.com
From the standpoint of the Trade Federation, what was the benefit of blockading Naboo?

Enforcing trade-law or tax changes that would benefit them? Extortion of a seemingly well-off planet sufficiently remote for the Senate not to do much about it? But the TF leadership is never portrayed as very bright, in any case.

on 2005-12-19 04:26 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] qadgop.livejournal.com
Whoa, wait, huh? If I'm reading this and subsequent posts correctly (and there's a good chance I'm not), you're assuming that Sidious was responsible for Anakin's creation. Why? Sure, Sidious saw (what he thought would be) a good thing when he saw it, but there's no onscreen reason to think that anything but (prophecy-fulfilling) blind chance led to Anakin crossing his path.

Once he has him, though--no, Sidious doesn't need Anakin at all, but he makes an intriguing possibility for a future Heir Of The Sith, if the previous candidates don't work out. I don't think there's anything more than that, at least during TPM.

on 2005-12-19 08:45 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] wombat1138.livejournal.com
Well, there was the otherwise throwaway line during the opera-box scene that in addition to circumventing death, Death Plagueis had discovered how to create... LIIIIFE!!! *lightning crash*

While the line itself is arguably ambiguous as a proper explantion of Anakin's virgin birth, apparently there's some ancillary officialesque material that reinforces it-- DVD commentary, an all-about-Vader book, possibly the ROTS novelization, and I dunno what-all else. As for why bother creating the kid in the first place, there's that whole angle about "bringing balance to the Force" by whacking a thumb onto the Sith side of the scale to catapult off most of the Jedi. (Whee!)

on 2005-12-20 04:52 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] qadgop.livejournal.com
Well, maybe. Going purely by what's in the film, the way I read the scene, it was entirely possible that Palpatine was simply bullshitting him. "The powers of the Sith might even bring life back to the dead! And create candy!"

on 2006-01-21 03:47 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] wombat1138.livejournal.com
"The powers of the Sith might even bring life back to the dead! And create candy!"

Oooo, candy. Where do I sign up for Sith powers????

on 2006-01-21 06:47 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] qadgop.livejournal.com
Assuming that the "Sith powers immediately turn you stupid" meme is just a creation of Jedi propaganda, I'd take 'em. Of course, were I Force-sensitive in a universe that worked according to the dramatic and moral laws of the established Lucasverse, it's pretty clear that I'd turn out Sithly, willful evil or not.

On the other hand, candy does explain Palpatine's tooth decay.

on 2006-01-21 07:01 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] wombat1138.livejournal.com
I dunno about stupidity being an inevitable side-effect of using Sith powers. (Palpatine seemed to do pretty well with them.) However, as with many manifestations of evil, they do seem to make one's eyes dry and irritated. Between that and the (lack of) dental plan, the Dark Side of the Force may need to consider a more comprehensive set of medical benefits.

on 2006-01-21 07:48 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] qadgop.livejournal.com
I dunno about stupidity being an inevitable side-effect of using Sith powers. (Palpatine seemed to do pretty well with them.)

Bwahaha! I know! I'll send away my guards and stay here in this big room with lots of windows on the tippy top of an inches-thin tower sticking out of a space station whose location I've leaked to my enemies, because there's no chance at all that their fleet will be able to take out a half-completed structure with big holes in it! Especially if I tell my fleet of Star Destroyers not to attack them! Oh, and even better: why don't I throw a private party for a Sith who wants to replace me and a Jedi who wants to kill me and is his son? It'll be the best plan ever! I have foreseen it!

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